EP 15. Neil Hancock, CMO at Twinview.

In this conversation, Neil Hancock touches on the concept of working fewer hours for better results, the importance of specificity in communication, and the value of understanding the core purpose of your work. Neil also discusses his role as CMO at Twinview and the challenges and responsibilities that come with it.  

Check out the episode below.

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In this episode, Neil Hancock offers advice such as doing less can result in more effectiveness. Neil's approach to projects and responsibilities changed significantly after a senior leadership coach urged him to become more productive in less time. This was before the birth of his first kid. Neil shares that working less hours can often result in greater outcomes. He also stresses the value of being explicit in communicating and knowing the main objective of your work. He manages the duties and obligations of his position as CMO at Twinview by striking a balance between strategic planning and practical implementation.

Neil discusses the value of pushing back and delegating as a leader, the benefits of setting quarterly goals, and the significant impact personal relationships have on professional growth. After moving from the agency to the client side, Neil experiences more contentment and a stronger bond with the expansion of businesses. He emphasises the value of having confidence in one's abilities, accepting imperfections, and realising one's own potential. Neil's continuous improvement philosophy, sometimes known as "living life in beta," emphasises the idea that making progress over perfectionism is more important.

Neil's insights reveal that understanding the core purpose of your work and being a generalist in a specialist world can be advantageous. He advocates for leaders to encourage pushback from their teams and to delegate tasks to foster growth. Personal relationships, particularly with family, significantly motivate and drive professional success. Ultimately, Neil's experiences and advice offer a fresh perspective on productivity, leadership, and the importance of work-life balance, emphasizing that doing less can sometimes lead to achieving more.

Takeaways

• Doing less can actually make you more effective and productive.
• Specificity in communication is crucial for achieving desired outcomes.
• Understanding the core purpose of your work helps prioritize tasks and make better decisions.
• Being a generalist can be an advantage in a specialist world.
• The role of a CMO in a startup is varied and requires a balance between strategic thinking and hands-on execution. As a leader, it's important to encourage and welcome pushback from team members and be open to delegating tasks to others.
• Implementing quarterly goals can help prioritize new projects and improvements, leading to continuous growth and progress.
• Personal relationships, such as family, can have a significant impact on professional motivation and drive.
• Transitioning from the agency world to the client side can provide more fulfillment and a deeper connection to the growth of a business.
• Recognize that you are good enough and have the skills to succeed. Embrace imperfection and have the confidence to put your work out there.
• Living life in beta means constantly striving for improvement and recognizing that perfection is subjective and unattainable.

Sound Bites

• "Actually, it's not necessary you're a busy fool, but actually you need to find a way in which you are more effective in a smaller window than knowing you've got a longer window to do the same thing in."
• "This is a very much manmade thing. This is not like a rule of law or like a, a rule of life that you should work like that. And quite, quite the opposite that like, sometimes if you work less, you can, you can actually get more."
• "I found I'm more effective by doing less or being tighter with the time frame I have to do something."
• "As a founder, as leaders, you want people to push back."
• "Take on one new project and improve two."
• "My determination to succeed has been driven by my children."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Counterintuitive Advice

02:01 The Power of Doing Less

05:35 The Importance of Specificity in Communication

09:37 Finding Purpose in Your Work

12:27 The Advantage of Being a Generalist

15:42 The Varied Role of a CMO in a Startup28:36Quarterly Goals

30:10 Personal Relationships and Motivation

38:29 Transitioning to the Client Side

42:22 Recognizing Your Abilities

47:05 Living Life in Beta

Transcript: 

0:00

Came back in the next day and I was as away with my boss for a client meeting and he gently pulled me aside and said did you realize that when you sent that out to his entire client page you hadn't changed the subject title back to what was already agreed?

So I basically sent this e-mail Martin campaign to his entire e-mail base with all the attention of on what are the general day was and the reason I mentioned this is I double checked everything.

0:24

Down Welcome to the show.

I'm like Kevin.

Awesome.

So first of all, I did have a question for you, which is what's one piece of advice that you've received that seemed counterintuitive at first, but now that you think of it, you're just so grateful for receiving that one example comes straight to mind and that actually to do less.

0:48

So I was this before my first child was born and we had a kind of almost like a coach for the senior leadership team, one of my previous businesses.

Now we're talking through, we're talking about.

I've always been hard working.

I've always done as much as needed, whenever it's needed.

1:05

But what I also meant is I would take on as much as possible.

I can do that, give it to me, I'll get that done.

We'll get that done.

And his point of view was that actually it's not necessary.

You're a busy fool, but actually you need to find a way in which you are more effective in a smaller window than knowing you've got a longer window.

1:23

Need to do the same thing in because predominantly I have a child for me, he's had kids himself.

He's like, you're not going to have that evening to to work anymore.

You need that evening to dedicate to the family.

And it was amazing how strong that message was and how effective I can be when I've got a shorter window.

1:43

And it's about, you know you've got this deadline to hit this thing.

You haven't got the evening to get this thing delivered.

It has to get delivered by this point and you've got to structure your day And it felt weird.

It felt strangerly saying, look, you need to find a way of actually doing less.

But actually what he meant was use the window that in which you work in and you'll find you're much more productive.

2:02

And the next day, you're not just tired, you come back in and you're ready to go again, knowing that the day ends.

Then you're your own world, You come back in again and you get going again.

And it's probably the one bit of advice that I'm like, you know what you told me, right?

It's changed how I approach projects and tasks.

2:18

Yeah, I mean, we're not even into the episode where are.

I'm already learning something, it almost reminds me of.

Yeah, you know all the all that research that came out, I think it's from just like in the Scandinavia region in general where I forgot the country now.

2:33

But basically they're testing out like 4 day work weeks or they have been testing them out and to like great success.

Basically like people are just realizing that it, you know, this whole like 5 like 9:00 to 5:00, Monday to Friday, this is a very much manmade thing.

2:50

This is not like a rule of law or like a rule of life that you should work like that.

And quite, quite the opposite that like sometimes if you work less you can you you can actually get more.

So I love the distinction you made between like oh it's not just like working less and and you're burning out lesser or or which leads to less burn out obviously but it's it's still being super effective just in a shorter window of time.

3:17

So that makes a lot of sense.

I found them more effective by doing less or.

Yeah, I'm the same, to be honest.

Yeah, being being tighter with the time frame, I have to do something that might just be some some subconscious procrastination.

3:32

It might be perfectionism, but knowing you've got this time deadline, I have it strict, I've got family time and it's work time.

But yet the quality and the quantity isn't isn't reduced by just being more focused with my with my time.

And it was weird coming from somebody who's coming to coach the senior leadership team to say you need to stop working in the evening.

3:53

I'm like, it doesn't make any sense.

But he was totally right.

Yeah, 100, I mean, like, I'm sure you're not can go on and on about this point.

Like Cal Newport in his book Deep Work, we'll talk about books later on, you know, But he talks about like really you're only as good as like 4 hours every day to redo your best work.

4:12

Anything else you're pretty much running on fumes, or you're lucky, or it's a fluke, but you're not necessarily designed to create.

Your best work for more than 4 hours a day and and and and if I if if memory search I think sometimes even less like even like 3 to 4 hours and that that thought like excites me and because even like with with our startup like we're always trying to figure out how do we how do we obviously continue working on the right thing like when you're when you're a startup I'm sure it's the same thing for for you guys at twins view you don't have a a bus in like the.

4:49

Traditional sort of like corporate sense of the word, you can almost you can kind of do whatever you want you know and in in some way shape or form.

And this is exciting for about 2-2 days or so and then it becomes really scary or it's like, wait, I could do anything And it always at least.

5:06

I don't know if if it's the same for you, but at least for me, like, I'm like like the the paradox of choice definitely kicks in where it's like, yeah, but if we do.

You know, if we do SEO, maybe we can't do this other thing, or if we do content where we have time for the other thing and so on.

So yeah, yeah, the the, the area of a slight think that as well.

5:24

Another great advice to the same gentleman was something that he's phrased as get the dog in the yard and it's a little exercise he goes through, but the real kind.

Of in what sense?

So the idea is if I asked you to think of a dog in a yard, you'll come up, you'll have a dog, you'll have a yard.

5:42

But actually what you come up with doesn't necessarily align what I asked you to do.

So yes, you you thought about a dog in a yard, but you don't know which dog.

You don't know whether it was grass, whether it was there were fence around it, whether it's large, whether it was small.

5:57

There's lots of details that you didn't know because I didn't brief you correctly.

And this concept of saying almost be able to push back on a brief and say I don't think I don't think the same dog in the same yard but ever the dogs in the yard if that makes sense.

I need more information in this brief to make sure that I give you back is exactly what you wanted.

6:17

Otherwise we're wasting our time because I'm not have to go back to the drawer bone do the same thing again.

And I've always explained the dog in the old concept to people who don't understand it, when they understand it.

And then it's just like I don't feed the dogs in the yard.

And it's all about that concept of saying it's okay to put your hand up and say I haven't got enough information, I need more from you.

6:37

Otherwise what you get back will just be chance if it's aligned what you want.

And we've all had this and sure you are I have.

Where the thing that comes back isn't what you want.

And it was your fault.

It's not their fault, it's your faults are not given the correct rate.

Yeah.

Or the correct prompt and charge GBT.

True.

6:53

True.

Yeah, true.

Right.

I think like we can definitely do a better job of that.

You know when whenever we're like thinking of like what needs to be done.

I think with Charge GBT, like we're all getting like a global lesson and like the importance of.

Specificity and like really knowing what you want and setting the boundaries and you know what success looks like, what it doesn't look like and so on.

7:16

Excuse me.

So I guess to set the stage, tell us a little bit more about what you're currently doing and then we'll rewind the tape from there.

Yeah.

So Neil Hancock, I'm the CMO, a company called Twin Views.

The Twin View is part of a wider group called the Space Group.

The Space Group was founded as an architect son who've always been the cutting edge of the industry and that has led to the development of of Twin View, so a few years old now as a business and solo we are starts up, we're within the stable of the Space Group and Twin View is about taking so the enhancements in smart technology predominately in the home and taking and applying it into the built environment.

7:56

So that can be anything from just a traditional office block to offshore oil and gas through to universities, prisons, airports, spacecraft, anything you want, race cars, all these kind of things.

In theory, you can take that what you might have in your home where you've the ability to control your heating, that's a very, very simple technology.

8:17

What's probably a technology is very simple to implement, but you could take that on scale and apply that to any building you would want in the world, any asset you'd want in the world.

You were telling me the story about Apollo, right?

Yeah.

So Apollo 13 is a great example of somebody used to that, well I guess was the founder of the technology to some degree.

8:36

And they were able to understand what was going on and run simulations of the Poly 30 spacecraft after its accident to give the advice to the engineers and the the the astronauts what to do to fix the problem to get them back.

Yet they were 300,000 miles away from from Earth and they only able to do that because they had a replica of the spacecraft digital replica.

8:59

They may have had a physical one as well, but they can run simulations on, they can run tests, they can understand information and that that concept can be applied to A to a building to understand the carbon emission can understand why you're wasting energy.

And the future of it is to have the building control itself.

9:16

It knows when nobody's occupying a certain area, turn the lights off, turn the heating down.

It knows that if the outside temperature is spiked higher than expected what impact does that have to the temperature of the office needs to be When you turn the boy around earlier you know just set it come on at 7.

9:31

It comes on dependent on the actual temperature of the building and the outside world.

And so it's it's it's a wonderful technology.

What excites me about Twin View and the role I have is we're at the forefront this.

We're not selling widgets.

9:46

We're not selling something that is has mass, mass, mass amounts of wellestablished competition.

Those alongside our competitors are trying to drive the education to then ultimately sell the the concepts and the.

And so yourself right now as CMO in a startup like that for folks who may not know like what are, what does the day in the life look like for you in terms of roles and responsibilities?

10:09

Very, very.

And so you know, some days I have to have the strategic hat on.

Some days it's about understanding where we position ourselves in this market is ever evolving.

We also have to understand how we want to invest our budgets.

We have a finite budget as most startups do.

10:27

It's about which of the right leave at the turns.

It's usually we have to sit down and they have to visualize that.

But equally we can't be held back by months and months and months of strategy and planning because that doesn't in itself achieve any growth.

It's underpins the growth.

So other days you're very much into the tactical changing working with the team, content development, marketing strategies, events, organize events, attending events.

10:51

It's it's very varied but it's it fits me down to a key that a T sorry, I enjoy being strategic if I was felt like I have a strategic mindset but I would miss just sitting in the ivory tower and not getting an answer to and doing some market campaigns and learning some stuff and means means of the event and talking.

11:12

Yeah.

So it's a, it's a real blend the dug around as we grow, as we develop, we'll bring more people in the team to support with some of the daytoday delivery And yes, our role will become a little bit more strategic.

But yeah, for starts up it's you've got to wear both hats.

11:27

But it comfortable knowing how marketing needs to be set up.

Yeah, but really getting stuck in as well. 100%, yeah.

I mean, it's we're not talking about books yet, but one, one book that I'm talking about I think too much on this podcast is, is I think I've been mentioning it every single episode.

11:47

I apologize to folks who already know about this book, but basically Range by David Epstein.

The subtitle of the book is How Generalists Triumph in a Specialist World and it basically makes the case that you know what there is a there is such a thing as over specialization and there is such a thing as having a competitive advantage.

12:07

Specifically because you are a generalist and to to your point you like you're pretty much able to zoom out and zoom in.

So let's let's rewind the tape.

Now obviously you you've had a whole history before twin view leading up to twin view.

So I suppose like.

12:23

Going into like from childhood to early career to where you are today, I think we can use that as a canvas to look at the the five key moments.

So maybe tell us about a time where you you came across a a proverbial landmine and you didn't know it until after the fact.

12:41

And what was that failure?

What did you learn from?

Yes, from a failure perspective.

So I've got you'll notice when we talk about give me one failure, I'm going to give you 2.

That might be a trend throughout this.

I'll give you almost like the runner up because one of the teller for this story.

12:57

But I first job in market.

I've been I don't know maybe maybe three or four months running a simple e-mail market campaign for a relatively tricky client.

We're sending out these get these remains.

We're sending out a test to him.

He was tweaking lots of things.

He was tweaking his own things that he tweaked.

13:14

He got a bit frustrating then he was claiming I can't see the emails.

Can you change the subject line to for the attention of.

I forget the German's name his name.

So I did that sent it through to him, checked in.

We finally got to a place whereby he sent everything off.

This was around at the 20th amend.

13:30

It's getting late in the day thought right click send gone.

Went home.

Came back in the next day and I was away with my boss for a client meeting and he gently pulled me aside and said did you realize that when you sent that out to his entire client page you hadn't changed the subject title back to what was already agreed?

13:50

So I basically sent this e-mail Martin campaign to his entire e-mail base with all the attention of on what the general's name was.

And the reason I mention this is I double checked everything Now.

I don't assume because that was right originally, that it's going to be right the second week, particularly on emails, but on genuine everything we do is that conscious of okay.

14:11

If everything is ready, just read through it again.

Just double check it.

Whether it be an internal e-mail to a stakeholder, whether it be a big e-mail marketing campaign sending out or paid marketing campaign or whatever it might be.

Just double.

Check.

Yeah, yeah.

It's funny.

I think everyone has kind of had some I guess like some version of that where they hit send a bit too early and if we all, we all are very.

14:39

Grateful for the I don't know if it's just me, but like I imagine we're all grateful for the fact that when you send an e-mail, let's say on Gmail, it shows you that undo button or like the the retrack button for like another 3-4 seconds.

And I'm definitely one to make to make good use of that button.

14:55

Like sometimes I just like to send something and then once it's like essentially sent in those like 3 seconds, I'm like actually no wait, undo.

I want to add more over thing or something.

So I'm with you at that.

Yes, it's just about that.

No matter how tired or how frustrated you are how long this process thinks are going on, it's that just take a second relook at things or get someone else to if you know if you're in it too much.

15:19

So can you just give me 5 minutes please?

I'll do it Back to you further down the line.

Just have I have I missed something because I've been in this this too much but the the real failure I wanted to talk about was is recruitment.

So I've recruited lots and lots of lots of people for lots of different businesses, lots, lots of different roles.

15:37

And one of the business I was at, we focused quite heavily in psychometrics.

So we started so trying to understand the makeup of the team, the makeup of the business.

And partly that was for how you communicate with people in your team, in your business who have got different natural psychological buildup than yourself.

15:54

So we all know some people are just 100 mile an hour doers, some people are detailed, some people are creative, some people are kind of more the people people.

And so it's all about that concept.

If we know more about each other, we can work more effectively.

And off the back of that, I actually started recruiting purely based on psychometric profiling.

16:16

Like the disk profile and things like that.

Like the disk profile stuff.

So we decide different, but exactly the same concept.

So I identified that we had a bit of a missed balance of one of my teams.

We had a lot of 1 particular makeup or we'd had none of the different stat.

So I'd made the conscious effort that we were going to recruit somebody who fit that profile.

16:36

We found somebody off the chart on the thing I was looking for.

Amazing.

Bring them into business.

But don't be wrong.

There's a lot of conversation now around CVS are ineffective and we should be building on on things like you're inbuilt psychological nature.

16:52

What I'd do was so narrow.

In that sense.

I had to understand the culture hadn't considered would that individual actually fit in the team?

Would that individual be able to enhance us or would actually would have tear us apart.

And fortunately it was the last of the individual came in and just clashed with the team.

17:09

So probably the team didn't enjoy working with them and it almost created a bigger disbalance in the team than after.

Thought I was Crane.

Thought I'd bring someone in who would be amazing at those skill sets that these people aren't great at and create that almost that joined up perfect fear of every of every color and I didn't.

17:29

I brought someone in who was actually didn't fit the culture of that team, let alone the the wider business.

Yeah.

It's I'm so glad you shared that because I I've, I can definitely relate to it almost like the the inversion, the inversion of that.

17:46

And I read about this in again with the books.

I read about this in a book by Dan Martel called Buy Back Your Time.

And he was making the case that specifically for like the the entrepreneur types like like me, unfortunately, you know it it it's really about like you see opportunity and everything.

18:07

Sometimes you see a person and you, you, you look past the things that make them not a good fit per se.

And you're like, no, no, no, it'll work out.

I'm sure you'll be great, you know, because your job is to be an optimist like that, like, by definition.

To to to start something from scratch you need to be optimistic that you can go where there was nothing before and create something new, very simple concept.

18:30

And so many times I would to your point like with the disk profile and and just like these kind of like this kind of like analysis where you basically look for people who are like we have a lot of idea people on on in in in the team.

18:46

Naturally we want to get a lot more detail oriented people and sometimes we realize, you know what?

Someone is not necessarily the most detail oriented, but we're like, you know what, It'll it'll be great, it'll work out.

And it's almost like a double failure because not only did we not get what we want, but equally important, perhaps even more important as we didn't necessarily provide the right environment for that person to succeed.

19:06

Because it's like, hey, I thought you guys are going to help me like what's in it for them, right?

Like I'm I'm unable to build my my career the way I thought I would because of all these.

Kind of like obstacles that you guys have have put in my way.

So it's it's almost like a double, double whammy in that regard.

19:23

So it's interesting what you say where you almost like because the opposite is true, like you were saying where if you focus purely on that and you almost disregard everything else that that's that's not any better.

You know I'm I'm quite analytical.

19:39

I like I like data and it's a great example of me going too deep and the data telling you the answer and the data is not always right.

Sometimes you need that shoot, that gut instinct, that human feel.

You need to take your head away from that.

19:54

It's ones and twos to actually not.

It's with people we're bigger than that and I just zoomed in on this.

I've got a disbalance.

This is all fix here and it's on it's it's black it's black and white.

The data tells me I meet this type of person.

What I'd ignored was the fact that this person wouldn't fit into the business.

20:12

This person didn't have the values and the culture.

That everybody else here was recruited on and actually bringing someone who didn't maybe have the profile I wanted but fit in the business would actually help elevate the wider team.

And it's just they end that whole process.

And now I've taken that, You know, again, I love data.

20:29

I'm always in the data, but actually sometimes to take a step back and be but does this make sense?

Does this feel right?

It might tell me it's right, but does it does it feel right And you have the ability.

So now I believe you do just to check and guess the data just to go is what chat GB T telling me true for example.

20:47

It's not.

It's not always just because it tells you it is.

Yeah.

I mean I love what you said around how like because you know they say numbers don't lie, which is fair enough, but numbers don't necessarily always give you the context that you need in that specific moment and and that's where the the qualitative part comes to compensate or to to to marry with with the quantitative part.

21:10

So shifting gears a little bit, what is 1?

So a book that I've used a lot.

Again, you'll notice I've got two rather than one.

The book I use a lot is the the Simon Cynic start.

Why I think it's a great book.

It's, but it's very well known.

21:26

I'm pretty sure many people have talked about that book on your pocket.

So I didn't want to talk.

About it?

Not yet, actually, but I imagine it's it is definitely a popular book for sure.

Yeah, timeless coming.

The one I want to talk about is one that people might not know particularly well.

It was caught by some good Simon Hartley and it's called 2 Lens of a Pool.

21:44

And I'm a big sports fan and I see the link between the kind of sports psychology and sports training with business.

I think that it's not.

Yeah.

I'm not the only person in the world who talks.

There's lots of books on this subject.

Taking the the mentality of an elite athlete and how they go about improving themselves is exactly the same sort of mentality you can take and apply the business.

22:04

And this book to land Liverpool is about Simon Hartley.

He was a an Olympic gym, Olympic swimmer.

Sorry.

He was good.

He's in the Olympics.

But he was never going to get into the finals for example.

And he brought in a psychologist and we're talking about why, what's going on, what's the problem.

22:23

And it turned out that he had in his head and million on one things that he needed to manage as an athlete.

You needed to sponsorship to needed to manage his locations.

He's imagine.

All the extracurricular stuff, really.

All of that stuff that goes on.

And what the psychology said to him was so surely your job is just to swim 2 lamps to the pool as fast as you can and he and he's like what you want about that's that's rubbish.

22:48

I've got blood when I came back.

He's like you know, you're right.

My job is to swim 2 lamps of the pool as quick as I can and they got to a point between a psychologist.

So you are only going to do things that make you swim 2 lamps to the pool faster.

Everything else is irrelevant and they effectively came up with five keys since 2 lens 5 keys and the five keys are affected the five things he needed to do to swim two lens to pull faster and he got to a point he tells a story about I think it was that he was but somebody came to him with sponsorship to where the new a new swim get he tried on he swam he actually swam slower so all he was getting paid more money He's like no that's not making me swim two lens of the pull faster.

23:30

I don't want it.

I'm going to go with what what works for me and if you apply it to the Vince environment, and this is what we did in one of the businesses that previously is it creates clarity.

We're all so busy, particularly in marketing of so many things, so many disciplines in marketing and there's usually pressures from so many parts of the business you can get just buried.

23:50

And this concept to what they're trying to get across in the book was find actually the things that really matter to you and have the confidence to say those things don't matter.

What was the example of that in the company you're talking about?

Like if if we can add some color to it.

24:06

So we had for example some in one of the department I worked in, it was about client satisfaction.

So we had what about cage was about how do we continue to maintain NPS.

And then it was about, for example, if you take on and you deliver certain initiatives that weren't going to improve client NPS, then what's the point of doing them?

24:37

So it should all be about actually you don't need to do for example, you don't need to do, you don't need to be sending out lots and lots and lots and lots of common.

You don't need to be checking of all your clients on a regular basis if actually that in itself isn't driving that NPS score.

24:53

If what would drive NPS is by being doing less but more adding more value in those conversations, that's what you might work on.

If, for example, it was about improving organic search presence for one of the clients supporting on some additional campaign within the business that's not aligned with that job, your job is to improve your client's MPs.

25:21

Don't get involved.

You're not needed in that part and it gave you almost the ability to say those external things that I could be getting involved in.

I'll probably have value in not helping me to my MY2 lamps and what be swimming pool, whether it be improving your organic revenue, whether it be grow your MRI, whether it be what when you business, that's what you're focused on.

25:44

And again to that point of getting a dog in the yard, the center of the fight, it's all about giving people confidence to say no, this is my lane.

What I'm going to do, I'm going to be very, very, very, very good at it.

And it it's amazing how many, particularly if you're intelligent, particularly if you're hard working, particularly if you're flexible and you'll find that more stuff gets laid on each like oh, that's the right guy, that's the right girl to pick this task up.

26:10

Yes, always because because they'll do a good job and if you are that type of person, you'll go, no worries, give it to me because I know I'll do a good job.

But all it goes is distract you from what actually meant to be doing over here.

And again, it's it's, you know, if you implement that, you read the book in by yourself personally, it's easier if you get the whole business to understand what you're trying to achieve.

26:32

Are you being paid if you're an employee or if you're the owner of the business?

The way you're getting your revenue from by, that's what you need to focus on delivering that thing.

You might do an amazing job up here at this thing, but that's not absolutely what you paid for.

That's not actually what's going to be business.

Yeah.

26:47

And actually just just to build on that.

I'm not going to mention their name but someone, someone on my team which we, which we love dearly who's who's been with us for a while.

The other I think the other day they they said something along the I'm paraphrasing greatly here but they said something along the lines of whatever it is, just give it to me, I'll get it done.

27:04

I'll always say yes, I'm happy to help I'm I'm happy to get it done.

Something along the lines of that.

And I got to take a mental note of, like of a failure on my part to to basically foster.

Foster and really like nurture a sense of prioritization and and the the importance of teaching or not teaching.

27:24

But like showing your team that the benefits of saying no one pushing back and just because you know someone asked for something doesn't mean it's always necessarily a yes.

But rather having this sort of like healthy, healthy, healthier debate of like, hey, I hear what you're saying, but.

27:44

This is my priority right now, so unless the priorities have changed, I'm gonna stick with the original plan.

I would love to have that dynamic, and this is something that we're always trying to work on more and more totally.

As a founder, as leaders, you want people to push back.

You want people to say you didn't realize, but that's there's a problem, and then you can go.

28:06

You're right.

Because then you'll burn out.

Exactly.

I'll give that to somebody else.

You totally right.

I've totally forgotten.

I'd love for you did those three things and I'll find someone else.

You conduct thing and I'm the same.

I was just taught myself as kind of in one role.

I was always ahead of the small teams because it's like yeah we'll just throw it over to you on team on to Neil.

28:24

You'll manage it.

He's good at that type of stuff.

It's like but all the team got so little attention that they didn't progress as fast as they could.

If it was a small number and again that was a problem with me I couldn't say no.

I said I know I can do a good job give it to me I'll get it done and you know that you talk about Damartel.

28:44

I've done a few classes with the Damartel's done a few courses and he's he's developed something I really like as well.

He developed this concept of courtly goals that's not new but his approach was take a one new project and approve to take a one new project and approve to.

29:02

So rather than see you've always got this motelity.

I mean one thing that's brand new we've never done before.

We're gonna get that live and then I'm gonna take two things that need to be improved and I'm gonna make them better.

And then next quarter take one brand new thing and two things to improve or one brand new thing or two things to approve them.

That concept of, you know, of decant vandalizing everything you've got to do in a way, and that there's great bit of advice, but it's the same concept really.

29:25

Yeah, no, that's I've never heard that one before.

That's really interesting.

I I'm not part of any any of his courses or groups unfortunately.

I just have the book.

But hey, it's a it's a start.

So shifting gears once again, I know we've been going hard in the paint to use the sports analogy on the professional side of things.

29:43

So let's let's step out of that for a second for one person who was who was someone maybe kind of like in your personal life that you feel.

Although they were kind of like behind the scenes, but they're really almost enabling you as a person and everything that you're achieving professionally.

30:01

So it might sound a little corny, but I'd say to some degrads I'd probably say my children I can death.

So I've got a 2 year old and an 87 year old and I think you can almost pinpoint either when we were wife was pregnant or when they were born in terms of a mental shift between it no longer being about me and it being about us as a collective.

30:28

So the decisions I made, the determination I have to succeed whether that be in business, but also who I am as a person individually, I'll say it's been driven by by then.

So I had a great upbringing.

I had great parents say they were very keen to a still certain valued into me, which I've benefited from in my life that I wasn't maybe aware of when I was growing up, that it's become more clear now as I'm older.

30:56

And I would say they must.

Just in just in terms of in terms of like in terms of like from a parenthood perspective or just in general, you mean in general.

So certainly general, I mean in terms of some of the things, the things that I value loyalty, I value honesty.

There's certain things that have obviously come from my upbringing and my parents like, but actually they've stead me in great, both in terms of be able to maintain strong friendship but actually progress from a Korean.

31:23

Now these are the sort of skills that yes, you can learn that we don't really learn that they come from you when you're a grown up, when you're a child, they're in built in you.

Yeah.

And.

Well, Neil Unda, let me ask you a weird question if you don't mind.

31:41

This is going to sound weird, but like, do you find that your children have?

Almost enabled your professional career or just help to sort of it's kind of shifted your priorities in the sense that you're you're not necessarily as crazy ambitious as you necessarily were before.

32:01

You're kind of focusing more on stability.

I don't know if my question makes sense but tell me if you get what I mean.

I would say to some degree the opposite.

I think that they driven that ambition of that motivation.

Love that all parents want their children to have the best life they possibly can and we all work hard and strive to to give it to them.

32:22

I'm not saying I was a card working previously, but it's just one of the things I enjoy doing.

But now it feels like actually it's about them.

I'm working to give them what they want and what they need.

The other than I'm working for me to have a nice holiday or a nice car or have a few drinks on the weekend.

32:40

It's actually that the drive and the goal is to get to the place where actually we can be financially secure children, but that also drives it, the ability to go.

I can spend some more time with the children as well if that be the case.

So actually it's not.

It's about, I wouldn't say being ambitious in a sense that I never see them.

32:58

There's a balance between that and clearly having time with the parents is more important than having a lot of wealth, if that makes sense.

But actually those decisions that we're making is about enabling that they can have something more, they can have something extra if we make these decisions and do this thing professionally or for personal.

33:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Let me, let me, let me build on that a bit more for folks who are listening, who are futurists and are thinking, you know what we're living in the age of like, we're like, you know, age of like we have things like crypto, we have like GPT, like you know, four and and God knows what else is coming after that.

33:36

I would argue that.

I mean they they could say like hey, hey, we would argue that like our kids are going to be so much more well off than us in the future just because it's going to get easier to to be, let's call it financially independent technology is getting easier.

It's going to be more accessible and so on.

33:53

And so this sort of I speak for my family at least like and and my grandparents like this sort of like traditional notion of like, hey, we're going to work pretty hard because we're going to save some money so that we can give it to the kids so that they could use it for, you know, college or.

To start their lives or something like that.

34:09

And we live in a time where it's almost like they're going to give us money or they're going to be so financially well off just because of the way things are going.

Again not sure if this makes sense to you, but but tell me if you get what I'm trying to say, I get what you're trying to say.

But I would challenge that in the sense that if you talk about a generation before or certainly in the here in the UK, a lot of growth was through property.

34:35

So there's an old property grew, grew dramatically that that growth is slowing but also that growth is hindering few generations.

So I'm going to read in in London at the average age price of buying your own home is just to late 30s, people haven't people, people can't get on that that ladder, people can't and then you're effectively wasting money.

34:53

So renting is is a waste.

You're just getting somebody money away for no reason what sort of paid their own mortgage.

So I actually think yes, there's there is the ability through things like crypto to to get.

I don't know anything about crypto by the way this this was just an example but but but again that is as any kind of investment a a gamble.

35:15

Those things have still been there that the the investment you could make in our Paris generation, partly in our generation is there are some much sounder more sound investments.

I don't know if those things exist anymore.

So yeah, you'll get some people who will accelerate past the wealth we could ever have.

35:33

There'll be a lot of people that not necessary in poverty but that will will struggle and that, you know, I'm saying university fees are dramatically more than when I went and you're burdening people with so much debt that if they want to do it themselves.

35:49

So my motivation is I started saving for my daughters before they were born because it's a minimal amount every month that it meant if they wanted to go to university we can afford it.

They don't have to leverage themselves with hundreds of thousands of pounds of debt.

It's actually, it's a small incremental bit for us, which means if they don't wanna get university, that's fine.

36:09

They not.

That's not all that right to root for everybody, but it's it's there if it's if it's needed.

Yeah, I I I love, I love your take on it at it.

It makes it makes sense.

And I think what's exciting about the future is that there's just so many different ways that they'll be able to to to grow and and have us learn from them almost.

36:28

And I think setting them up for successes is is.

Something that like no one, no one, no one can debate for sure.

So, so yeah, let's shift gears once more.

What is maybe a little bit closer to to where you are today at Twin View.

36:44

What was one decision for you?

Again, I've got 21 slightly not allow the question.

I should have seen this coming, yeah, yeah, I wanted to make the point, so I went.

So I was 8, my family moved abroad so we left UK and went and lived in in Belgium around it there till I was 18 came back to UK for.

37:05

University Cool.

Do you speak Flemish or French?

So we learned.

We learned French at school and I played for a local Flemish football club.

So I learned Flemish in a way that I could communicate on the football pitch and in the, you know, in the have a drink afterwards.

Can be a good whole, a good whole conversation.

37:22

A French.

We learned French and German in school, so all I was it wasn't fluent.

Yeah, we, we, we again reading stronger than than the maximum.

I was I was a British accent.

I can't get rid of that.

So people can tell I'm clearly not French.

But the point I was making is that taking yourself out of the comfort zone, and it doesn't have to be to Belgium, it could be to a different area within the UK that traveling and seeing that the world is different outside your small pond and even go to a different university, that's another example of you have to do it or go to a college somewhere else.

37:55

But that adaptability, that resilience, that perseverance, that being comfortable, not comfortable.

And it's not that I learned I had to.

It's not like I didn't have a choice.

I was going over there.

So apparently going over there, but having that that ability to do that helps.

So that that wasn't my decision.

38:11

It was a decision I think I gained a lot from in terms of my personal decision.

I grew up in an agency world and agency is shiny.

It's cool.

We have bean bags and table football tables and you get beers on Friday and you get a variety of clients and it's it's cool, it's presented, it marks itself that's cool and it was.

38:32

I joined in further deep and a little quickly but I made a decision that five years ago to leave the agency world and move move client side.

So my specialtism was was SAS B to B sass.

Ultimately, yeah, but it could be any client side movie you want to make and it's always nervous when you agency.

38:52

Well, the B to B or client side is boring.

You got one project, can't sign anything else, you can't go anywhere.

But actually it's probably the best decision professionally that I've made, that ability to go from end to end, the ability to deliver and then deliver again and then see it fruition.

39:09

You'd always get that in the agency, just a small cog in A in a big in a big machine.

But there's a lot of people.

I was one of those, a lot of people I know this like never go there, I go client side to retire.

It's it's the place where you go just the end of the day.

So no pressure.

And it's not like that.

39:26

It's certainly not in the sass world that I'm in.

It's fast moving, it's forward thinking and just so much more fulfillment.

So a decision I made that I massively value and again for anyone's listening this, you may have experienced or may live in that want to go into that agency world?

39:45

Yeah, great.

There's some good ways, fast way to learn marketing, but actually you gonna get more fulfilled by taking what you've learned and flying it to a business.

You can see that growth and you are directly linked to that growth with that business.

Yeah, I mean it's it's interesting cuz like during before setting up chop cast with with my brother four years ago, I was in HubSpot.

40:07

And in HubSpot, my job was to work with agencies to kind of.

Like the movie Inception if you if you've seen it basically and help them master inbound marketing and drive results with it as an agency and then once the onboard clients helping them to do that same thing for for their clients as they were and it was great.

40:25

But it also you just felt to be honest like you felt like you were you weren't in on all of the action and sometimes agencies would come, agencies would go, you're playing sort of like a small or like a transitory part in the journey as opposed to say what we're doing right now where it's like hey you're with the same brand like week in, week out, year in year out and you just you really settle in a lot more.

40:50

It kind of reminds me of the renting versus buying analogy that we were talking about earlier.

Totally, Totally.

And you find yourself in bigger conversations, exposure to C-Suite, if you're working your way up board meetings, that there are types of things that you just wouldn't get exposure to in the agency world, certainly not rakingly.

41:10

And that just added benefits to your own personal growth.

Yeah.

So one thing that struck me about your LinkedIn profile is that you've done quite a lot.

And I think you make it really easy for people to see what you've done because I think in every section in your and people feel free to check out Neil's profile like you're you're you're very you said you were detailoriented and you're not lying.

41:38

I think like for every section like it's very clear what you were doing there as opposed to oh, I, I, I, I was at this place doing what I couldn't tell you.

And so I I admire that.

I I admired that.

But I also think this one is going to be challenging one what is 1.

41:55

Learning you've had from all of the years of work that you had so far that just stuck with you throughout throughout your time.

One learning, I would suggest that I think this will resonate with more people than than you expect is that you are good enough.

42:16

So I've always got a little bit of imposter syndrome and I think a lot of people do.

And some of that detail comes with the fact that I need to prove that I do know I'm talking about.

I need to prove that I have got this experience and.

And I don't want to someone to find a hole in my my idea or my strategy or my CV.

42:39

I want to find that hole and I want to plug that hole.

And actually it can be tiring at times that you're carried on with that.

Are you good enough mentality.

And I think that's one of the things I've learned is most of us are.

It's not all of us, all of us are good at something we figure all that thing are.

42:56

But a lot of us just need that confidence to try.

And say stuff.

I failed a lots of things and that's how I know I'm good at things, cuz I failed that and I'm alert from them and got them right.

And do you find that in a weird way Sometimes the things that you fail out end up becoming your new favorite things, cuz you just know it so well at this stage.

43:16

Totally.

That example I gave you right at the start is running in my marketing stuff and I failed terribly at that.

But I know that I've learned from it and after I know that I'm much stronger and much and much better at it and there's loads of things where it's you don't worry.

A great example is I don't believe I'm overly craves on word but for for a designer and a designer necessarily so I always leaned on designers if if I want you know the blank, she's the worst thing in the world to me.

43:45

I need somebody to make this look, make this look good.

And I've learned at Twin View when we don't have as much resource around that actually.

Get There are tools that can, Brad.

There's some great tools that can help get you on the journey.

But I can create things that look good.

I can create things that people praise me about What in Batman I'm going could be better.

44:02

That could be better.

But I don't know.

But actually having that confidence that I've learned this over time is it.

Pop things out and you'll find that most people will find that way better than you, you anticipated, and those who don't, And this is something I learned around, position things as a draft, even if you've spent.

44:21

Years on this and you're so proud about it.

Position it as a draft because a, it's easier for people to feed back to you because they think okay.

This is just, it doesn't things just finished even though you really do.

And also it's easy for you to take that feedback on board because it's like that was never the fish product anyway.

44:38

That was always a draft, even though he really wasn't your mind that the fish product and you put yours, is it?

Is it more for others or more for you to say it?

That way is it?

Is it both?

But it's managing that whole imposter syndrome of.

I can't do this.

I'm not good enough at this.

Yeah, and I love that.

44:55

The draft.

What's that?

Yeah, and if someone always live life in Bidra had someone say it was a really good saying, say that.

Say that again.

Sorry.

Always live life in beta.

All right.

Yeah, Yeah, makes.

Sense.

That is a great saying, but it's that whole concept that you put this stuff out and if it gets torn apart, you've got a safe space.

45:13

It was never finished.

It was.

It was never complete.

It was expected to get better.

But more often not people go brilliant, really like to this really good because you are good enough to do this stuff.

You've got their space, you've done it before and it that's just a way of dealing with it.

45:30

I don't know how many people on that that they listen to the podcast feel at times they're not good enough back it will be way more than you, way more than you think.

My loads of people, they've clearly got a confidence issues and just just on that Neil as well like I think for folks tuning in I guess like just just to help clarify what you're saying, we're not, we're not talking about, I don't think Neil's talking about getting a whole a free pass to not do your best as it were.

45:58

It's more so doing your best, but also recognizing that it's always going to be in constant improvement, isn't it?

And it's putting a safety blanket over you.

So there's plenty of things you know.

If you have Elevism imposter syndrome, it can often leave the procrastination.

46:14

Because and perfectionism, 100 and those two, those two things certainly in growing businesses but probably in life on massive weaknesses.

But I understand where they come from.

I've gone from my career.

There are times I've had both of those two challenges.

It's about creating that safety blanket for you that you can put things out, move things forward.

46:35

Even if you don't think it's perfect, even if you don't think it's good enough or even if you don't think you're good enough to do this thing.

There's your safety blanket of.

Well I was taking that feedback on to improve it.

But you'll find, and this is the the, the, the bit I hope people take from the the whether they're listening, you'll find it more often than not.

46:54

You don't get much negativity because you are good enough and it is good enough and it's good enough for them and that's fine, let's go, let's get it done.

And you.

I know this with many bosses I've worked with they'd rather get things out at 80% than wait for 100% or never even achieve 100%.

If you think you're not good enough, you just you just could have stopped putting it out and.

47:13

That's the worst thing you can.

And what if you know?

Here's an interesting thought.

What if 100% is it is a subjective thing or a something that doesn't even exist?

Really.

You know, that could be something worth pondering as well.

And and you talk about always improving, we never get 200, we never get to 100% So using that as a I'm not looking out is not perfect sometimes comes from the fact that you just.

47:41

There is a that you feel like you dubs at the beer.

You feel like you don't have the skills you you really, really do.

You really do just need to showcase them, have the confidence to showcase them and I found it's a great safety blanket.

I love that it was in life with beta.

Yeah, yeah, no thanks.

Thanks for showing that as someone who is who suffers from imposter syndrome on a regular basis, both in my professional life and also in my personal life.

48:07

Like, I play guitar.

I try to record some songs and the solo is not quite sophisticated enough, like oh, that's so predictable or whatever.

So I I I'd never end up releasing songs even though I used to do that Once Upon a time, like 100 years ago.

So this is definitely helpful for me personally.

So, so yeah, thank you so much for showing that at a kind of, I know we were talking about Dan Martel.

48:27

Another business coach that I think Dan Martel cites as well is coach Dan Sullivan.

And he talks about something that you've alluded to Neal, which is this notion of let 80% be the new 100% because you still got 80% of the thing done, which is the majority of it.

48:44

And then your next milestone maybe similar to what you're talking about in terms of like your quarterly girls are like 1-1 net new thing and then two kind of like improvements.

One of your your quarterly goals could basically be doing that, doing another 80% push on on the remaining 20% and then another and then another.

49:02

And if for for all the math experts out there, definitely not me, I I did it with a calculator and you realize that you never actually get to 100, you're always like 99 point something.

It's pretty annoying but but it proves the point that like you're always just working into in 80% increments.

49:20

And yes indeed, the 1st 80% is is the biggest leap you do.

So yeah, make it.

Make you explain in a really strong way though that you keep adding value, you never yet and you still nearly 100% it just just didn't happen and you get close to as easy.

You feel comfortable to me.

49:37

I'm happy of 80%.

If some people want 90%, OK, it's right to get the 90%, yeah, fair enough.

So you know, we can keep talking as I feel like you and I are both holding back because like we have so much more to talk about, but we're both trying to be concise for for the sake of our listeners as well.

49:55

So I just wanted to say in closing, where can people find you and is there anything that you wanted to give either as yourself or a swing view?

Yes, so Neil and Hancock on LinkedIn.

Best place to to to get me and find me.

And for those listeners that you know, if if they want to continue the conversation with me, Leach is the best place to do it.

50:16

What I would suggest though is reference this podcast.

I get a lot of requests on LinkedIn and I'm pretty careful on who I I letting it into my ecosystem.

That makes sense, but people reference the podcast.

I'll know it's from you guys and I'll make sure we got accepted.

50:33

And yet look, I take a lot of passion from seeing the only people I work, I guess growing and improving and going on to big or bad things.

So I'll always try and find time to help people out if they can, whether that be through some long distance mentoring or even just answering answering questions.

50:52

Awesome.

Well, thank you so much and we'll see you soon.

Thank you, Karen.

Take care.